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Podcast Episode 6: Tim Gwillim

Podcast Episode 6: Tim Gwillim

In the most recent episode of the Learning Conversations podcast, I sat down and talked with Tim Gwillim, who is the Dean of Workforce Training & Community Engagement. Among the topics we covered in our conversation were his experience in Russia as a Fulbright Scholar, “Virtual Exchanges” with programs from other countries and his dissertation research that focused on Davidson-Davie’s International Education program. Enjoy!

Show Notes:
Tim’s Article: Virtual Exchanges: Fake Mobility or Unique Experience

Video Transcript:


00:00:04.360 –> 00:00:05.193 {Music}

Phil Tietjen: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the next episode of the Learning Conversations podcast.  In this podcast, we talk to people involved with various aspects of the community college experience, especially with a focus on teaching and learning.  Our guest for this episode is Tim Gwillim the Dean of Workforce and Community engagement. Welcome Tim.

Tim Gwillim: Well, thank you. Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Phil Tietjen: Thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. So one of the reasons I wanted to invite you on the podcast is because I’d like to hear more about your recently completed dissertation and research topic. But before we get into that, I thought maybe for those that don’t know you already, because I know you definitely get out there and you’re out and about on campus and that kind of thing. But for those who don’t already know you, I thought maybe we could start with, you kind of sharing a little about who you are, what your role is here at the college and then we’ll kind of use that as a transition into your recent dissertation research.

Tim Gwillim:  Okay. Well, great. Well, just in case people out there don’t know who necessarily I am, as was previous previously mentioned, I am Tim Gwillim, the Dean of Workforce Training and Community Engagement here at the college. I’ve been here at the college at Davidson Davie since 2015. I came in 2015 as the Associate Dean of Art, Science and Education. Last year, just about a year and a half ago, I transitioned into the Dean of Workforce Training and Community Engagement. So, I feel like I’ve kind of been in quite a big area of the college, you know, from going from Art and Science Education to Workforce Training here at the college.

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: So Workforce Training, just to mention a little bit, you know, is a lot of the career and technical programs.

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: that we offer here at the college, not just curriculum, but also continuing education. So, it’s, it’s a little bit from, you know, we have several divisions from Salon and Spa Services all the way to the Basic Law Enforcement Training, Fire EMS to even, you know, the technical careers like Welding and Industrial Maintenance and HVAC and things like that. So …

Phil Tietjen: Quite a wide variety. Yeah.

Tim Gwillim: It’s quite a wide variety. It’s a lot of different programs, especially coming into that area, a lot of programs to learn

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm, <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: I’ve been here since 2015, but really, I’ve been in higher ed since I graduated with my Master’s degree in 1997. So that’s really 25 years. And I’ve been in Florida at a four-year, liberal arts university

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative> So mm-hmm,

Tim Gwillim: to Illinois where I served at a community college. So I’ve been in a community college system.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: at least a community college necessarily North Carolina Community College system

Phil Tietjen: Right, right.

Tim Gwillim: Since 2005,

Phil Tietjen: So, okay. Yeah. Quite a variety.

Phil Tietjen: Absolutely. Yeah. And so, you’ve done both two year and four years.

Tim Gwillim: I have, I’ve been at both two-year and four-year and, and taught at every institution I’ve been at. So, I’ve taught political science. That’s what my master’s degree

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative> ,

Tim Gwillim: is in and specifically comparative politics. So, I’ve taught at all three institutions, you know, and a lot of times at community colleges PoliSci means you’re gonna be teaching American government. Right. So, I’ve taught American government quite a bit, but, yeah, that’s a little bit of my background and

Phil Tietjen: great, great

Tim Gwillim: how I came to North Carolina and Davidson Davie Community College.

Phil Tietjen: Fantastic. A quick follow up if I could, so have you taught any political science classes here at Davidson Davie?

Tim Gwillim: Just one and it was American government.

Phil Tietjen: Okay.

Tim Gwillim:  In the fall of 2018. So, it’s been a little while, but yeah, I have taught American government here at Davidson Davie.

Phil Tietjen: Nice. Okay, great. So let’s transition a bit into your dissertation research. Now I know just from kind of our previous conversations, you have an interest in international education. Can you tell us a little about what was the general topic of your dissertation? We’ll start with that. Tell us a little bit about.

Tim Gwillim: Well, I, just finished up here in July, my EdD at Wingate University.

Phil Tietjen: Congratulations by the way.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, it’s a big relief to be finished.

Phil Tietjen: That’s. A major ordeal.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah, it is. It’s nice to be it to be completed. Absolutely. I chose the topic of the effectiveness of short-term study abroad in promoting student retention, completion and growth in intercultural competence.

Phil Tietjen: That is a mouthful.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah, it is. So I looked at Davidson Davie’s international study abroad program

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and compared the results well compared, you know, the students who’d studied abroad to the general population here at Davidson Davie during the same time period. I looked at the time period between 2013 and 2020.

Phil Tietjen: Okay. Okay. Well, that’s a pretty significant time period.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah.

Phil Tietjen: So what inspired your interest in studying that particular topic?

Tim Gwillim: Well, well, we’ve already discussed how I, you know, my master’s thesis was comparative politics, right?

Phil Tietjen: Oh, that’s right. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah.

Tim Gwillim: So specifically, I looked at election results in the United Kingdom, if you would be really specific, but still my, with my focus area in comparative politics, obviously I had an interest in the, you know, looking at different political systems in the world.

Phil Tietjen: Right.

Tim Gwillim: So obviously I’m going to have an interest in the world and international education.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tim Gwillim: Also our time, my time, both in Florida and in Illinois, you know, I took some student groups abroad. I took student groups to Costa Rica multiple times, but also to Europe

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: So I had that interest before I came to Davidson Davie Community College. And of course, once I got to Davidson Davie and realized how robust the international education was at Davidson Davie and everything that they were doing, you know, it kind of piqued my interest a little bit.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah. So not only did you have the academic interest in terms of your research and master’s thesis work, but also you had that kind of practical applied interest of actually taking students to these different countries. Yes.

Tim Gwillim: And then, you know, once I got here with the encouragement of Suzanne LaVenture, you know, the director of International Education here at the college, I applied to be a Fulbright scholar and was awarded a Fulbright scholarship to be a Fulbright scholar in Russia in 2019.

Phil Tietjen: Nice, fantastic.

Tim Gwillim: So, you know, that was a great experience, you know, two weeks in Russia representing community colleges at universities in Russia. So that was a great experience and of course obviously strengthened my interest in in International Education

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and how to, you know, get that to students at community colleges.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> If you don’t mind, maybe we can talk a little about that too, for a minute or two. Maybe tell us, like, what was one of the most interesting takeaways or two from your time in Russia, any of the trips you took?

Tim Gwillim: Yeah. And so, I’ve been to Russia twice. Once was in 2019 as a Fulbright, and then just, just about a year ago, I was in Russia in St. Petersburg specifically in 2021 because I was invited by a university in St. Petersburg to come participate in their opening festivities for the school year, which is September 1st

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim:  they’re from very first, the kids first going to school to universities. Everyone starts on September 1st.

Phil Tietjen: And does it run nine months like here in the United States?

Tim Gwillim: It does. They go into June. But yeah, it, it runs a similar schedule, you know, obviously they’re north of the equator, so winter. Yeah. You know, so the school year runs the same time, so.

Phil Tietjen: Gotcha. Yeah. Right.

Tim Gwillim: I mean maybe starting a little later than we yeah, we do, which is a little bit different.  But I remember from when we had the Fulbright scholar from Argentina last year

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: because she talked about the differences in schedule.

Phil Tietjen: Yes, yes.

Tim Gwillim: But then again, they’re running still into the winter.

Phil Tietjen: Right. True. True.

Tim Gwillim: Their winter just happens to be when we’re thinking of summer.

Phil Tietjen: Right. Exactly.

Tim Gwillim: So, their summer break is January, December and January. Okay. But I think some interesting takeaways were that I just really enjoyed my time. I think one of the most surreal moments, I guess I’ll talk about that is, you know, when you’re in Moscow and you’re especially being a, my background in political science and studying political systems,

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: that here I am in the middle Red Square in Moscow, right.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: with the Kremlin walls and Lenin’s tomb right there next to me and, you know, St. Basil’s Cathedral, and when you see pictures of Russia and standing there in middle of Red Square thinking, you know, I remember growing up seeing clips of military parades right through Red Square. And I hear that that’s where I’m standing, you know? So that was probably one of the most surreal, you know, like I’m yeah. I’m here, which was actually the end of my two weeks in Russia in 2019 was in Moscow’s Red Square. Because I started in St. Petersburg and we kind of made our way through a couple different cities to Moscow, you know, at the end. So, but, but I think also there are a lot of times we don’t necessarily think of this, but the warmth of the Russian people. They are just very friendly and warm and, and just really wanting to, you know, make connections.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative> ‘

Tim Gwillim: I think a lot of times, you know, Russians get a reputation as being stern and cold. But what you learn is it’s kind of their custom, especially when they’re being introduced to somebody

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm, <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: they’re very formal

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: so, they don’t, it’s not in their custom to smile.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: in fact, we learned, and of course I realized I was going to be in trouble with this, but <laugh>  in Russia that if someone comes up to you and they go to shake your hand and they’re smiling, Russia thinks in Russia, their custom is that in some ways that’s not very smart.

Phil Tietjen: Really.

Tim Gwillim: Why I, I, I don’t necessarily know, I guess just because you’re supposed to be formal and stern and that’s just an introduction, but after that, you know, they’re, they’re really

Phil Tietjen: warm mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and welcoming me, but, yeah. I realized I’m going to have a hard time and, and they realize Americans, that’s our culture. Right. When we go shake somebody’s hand, we smile.

Phil Tietjen: Right. Yeah. Right. They realize that. Right.

Tim Gwillim: But I was like, man, if I’m going to have to try not to smile when I’m shaking, somebody’s hand, I’m going to, I’m going to have a hard time. So yeah, but yeah, that is because that is the stereotypical vision I have of like Russian kind of, you know, customs and interactions is that they’re more kind of, stiff and you know, kind of a stiff upper lip kind of thing. And so yeah, and I can easily see that people would misperceive that kind of high level of formality, as being kind of cold and uncaring, but, you know, you’re finding out that that wasn’t the case at all. So, you going to get past part of their customs, you know, of communication, I guess.

Phil Tietjen: Right.

Tim Gwillim: And that’s just their initial introduction.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: in fact, I’ve told several people this on campus, but just kind of two pictures that represent that we went to university in St. Petersburg. And of course, the first formal meeting we were going to have, they set us at this big conference table, you know, all the Americans on one side of the table with an American flag on that side, all the Russians on another side of the table with the Russian flag.

Phil Tietjen: Wow.

Tim Gwillim: And of course, then the Dean or the vice president of the university, you know, goes into the official introduction or whatever

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Gwillim: And of course, if you look at that picture, everybody’s got a real stern formal, you know, look on their face, almost like a summit meeting or something like that. That’s what it felt like. You know, so, but five minutes later after that meeting was over, we have a picture in front of, on a stairwell and of course everybody’s smiling and everybody’s, you know, you know, there together. So that’s, that’s kind of what, what to expect. Yeah.

Phil Tietjen:  Wow.

Tim Gwillim: If you go to Russia, so.

Phil Tietjen:  Very cool. So well we could, of course, definitely talk for hours about that, but let’s flip back, in the interest of time, to your research. So, in your research, you’re focusing on, let’s say student retention and growth in intercultural competence. So let’s maybe talk a little about how you went about studying some of that.

Tim Gwillim: So, what I did is I gathered all the students who had studied abroad at Davidson Davie

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: from 2013 to 2020. , and I looked at their retention rates and the way I defined retention was spring to fall retention.

Phil Tietjen: Okay.

Tim Gwillim: Because if you look at the study abroad programs that the college ran in those years, they’re either during spring break or in the summer.

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Gwillim: So, the next semester they would have an opportunity to enroll would be fall

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <Affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Gwillim: So, I got those results and got, you know, what was the rate of students who participated in study abroad and what was their retention rate

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and then I compared it to the overall college spring to fall retention rates.

Phil Tietjen: Oh, okay.

Tim Gwillim: During those same years

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and it came up as significant result that you could say that short term study abroad did significantly affect the retention rate of those students.

Phil Tietjen: Wow. That’s. Good to see.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah, so it was, it was a significant result. And then for completion

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: you know, with the college here, they have to report to IPEDS (Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System)

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: you know, the 150% completion rate. So I got the for the overall student population, again, I define completion as completing a program in 150% of the program length.

Phil Tietjen: Right.

Tim Gwillim: So, okay. If it’s a two-year program, they can complete it in three years.

Phil Tietjen: Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and still be counted as a completer.

Phil Tietjen: Okay. Gotcha.

Tim Gwillim: So I got the overall college, right. And again, I went back to the study abroad population and looked up and determined if the students had completed their program within 150% of their enrollment

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Gwillim: So I got those two results. And, and again, compared those two results statistically, and again, the results showed that short-term participation in short-term study abroad did, was a statistically significant in promoting completion for their degrees too. So as compared to the general student population, so those were definitely significant results, and then for intercultural competence, those were obviously the first two questions

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm. Right.

Tim Gwillim: and then for the, the intercultural competence, it was a qualitative study

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and I didn’t really have any students to talk to because, you know, this was 20, 22, 20 21. I was starting it in 2022, right. That the impact and the last time, the pandemic exactly. The last time that we had study abroad programs until this summer

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim:  was 2020. So, most of those students were, had already completed their program and were not at the college anymore. So, to get at that, I put together a survey, in which I sent it to the faculty who have either led or co-led a short-term study abroad program here at the college and surveyed them to see if they saw student growth in intercultural competence and through a variety of questions or whatever.

Phil Tietjen: Gotcha.

Tim Gwillim: So, to make a long story short, you know, the results showed that the faculty felt like students. Yes. We did see growth in intercultural competence. Now some of the things that were highlighted from that is they faculty did feel like, yeah, there was some growth, maybe it was small, but of course the programs are short.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah, exactly.

Tim Gwillim:  And that goes along with a lot of the research that’s out there that, you know, there is growth in short-term study abroad, but it’s not going to be as much as what they call long-term study abroad which is a, a program is usually defined as eight weeks or more.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But that makes sense. Right. If somebody’s in the country, another country for a whole semester or a whole school year, they’re probably gonna experience more yeah. Growth in one or two weeks.

Tim Gwillim:  Right. So that was a result. Faculty also pointed out the the importance of requiring students to take a class before they study abroad

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim:  and that class kind of sets up the study abroad experience.

Phil Tietjen: Right.

Tim Gwillim: And we talked about the culture of the country. They’re going to a little way, a bit about representing the college and studying abroad and those types of things. And, and the faculty really did highlight the importance of that is setting up learning. That does seem like a critical component because like, if I can bring in an educational term, I mean, that kind of reminds me of like the importance of scaffolding

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Tim Gwillim: So if you want to encourage students to have a positive learning outcomes, experiences, you know, scaffold it, especially if it’s kind of something that’s particularly new, such as like an international experience where they’re traveling to a country they haven’t been to.

Phil Tietjen: So yeah, that really makes a lot of sense to have that course have them take that course before they go abroad.

Tim Gwillim:  Right. So that was some of the things that came out as part of the qualitative study.

Phil Tietjen: Fantastic.

Tim Gwillim: I did also just briefly look at; I wanted to see who was participating short term study abroad at Davidson Davie

Phil Tietjen: mm-hm mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: what was their population of students who had studied abroad? And the good thing of that result was really our study abroad participation really mirrored our overall population percentages. So really, we had the same percentage of, you know, minorities participating in short term study abroad here at the college as we have enrollment percentages at the college.

Phil Tietjen: Fantastic.

Tim Gwillim: So, I know, you know, Suzanne was happy to see that, that they have, they have been as successful in.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah.

Tim Gwillim: making progress on closing equity gaps exactly. When it comes to international travel and study experiences.

Phil Tietjen: Yes. Yeah. Wow. That’s fantastic. Some very positive findings. So not only an interesting study, but, some very positive findings in terms of talking about and pointing to the impact of, travel abroad experiences. And what I find particularly kind of intriguing about your work is that you’re focusing on like, short-term visits or short-term stays because like you said, you know, it would make sense. It makes a lot of logical sense if a student is over there for like a full semester or even maybe, or a full academic year, but what’s the impact if they’re only there for a short period of time. And I think that, that, I mean, I’m, you’re obviously, you know, much more familiar with the literature than I am, but to me that seems like a much-needed area of research that your work responds to.

Tim Gwillim:  And there’s quite a bit of research out there, if you look, as far as short-term study abroad, but then when you get to short-term study abroad at community colleges, you know, it gets a little smaller, so, and it’s a little harder to find, so yeah, I think, and then to focus on retention and completion, although there’s some studies out there it’s even smaller number, you know,

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm, <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: intercultural competent growth and intercultural competence. There’s a little more literature out there, but I think it was significant to find that yes, it does affect student retention student completion as well.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah. Which obviously is something that we focus on here at Davidson Davie.

Tim Gwillim: Yeah.  Absolutely. Short-term study abroad is another avenue to encourage or improve on. That’s, that’s a good thing. Yeah.

Phil Tietjen: Fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. That’s really great. So looking forward, I know you just finished, so I know this might be kind of a bit of a, of a difficult question, but are you thinking about expanding on any of this work? Are you planning on doing some conference presentations or anything like that? Or are you like, “Hey, I need a six-month break.”

Tim Gwillim: Yeah. One of the things that was required the last semester is that they wanted us to present our research to a peer reviewed journal.

Phil Tietjen:  Mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: you know, Wingate did mm-hmm <affirmative> so I have submitted it and I actually got back the peer review. It was just this past week. So I’ll probably be working on that, try to get that, you know, some of my research published here soon.

Phil Tietjen: Oh. Great. So do you have something in the works?

Tim Gwillim: Yeah. So I’m working on that. I’ve also had conversations, with, well, the Director of International Education at the St. Petersburg State University of Telecommunications.

Phil Tietjen: The one we’ve done a lot of virtual exchanges with?

Tim Gwillim: Yeah. She wants to do a little more research. We have published, we actually published in our article 2021 about virtual exchanges.

Phil Tietjen: Oh, really?

Tim Gwillim: And we have data from Davidson Davie Community College and St. Petersburg State University of Telecommunications, you know, the students from both universities, both institutions, about their perception of virtual exchanges. So, we published that in 2021.

Phil Tietjen: Wow. Maybe we could share that show notes links for people who might be interested in reading it.

Tim Gwillim: Okay.

Phil Tietjen: Sorry, I didn’t mean to get you off your point.

Tim Gwillim: No, no, no, that’s fine. So, you know, we’ve done it, but she has asked you wouldn’t wanted to do anymore research or anything.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: But now current events, it’s going to be a little harder.

Phil Tietjen:  Yeah.

Tim Gwillim: But we’re, discussing maybe some things about that.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah.

Tim Gwillim: So, yeah, because that was one of the things that definitely brought about is we had to kind of, you know, come up with like workarounds and virtual exchanges and that’s really, I think, , another, even now that we’re kind of moving to the other side of COVID, I think that, , it laid the groundwork for, you know, future possibilities in doing virtual exchanges, because even aside from kind of pandemic issues, you could have just like transportation or logistical issues, or maybe it could also be a complement to what you were talking about before, as a complement to the course that the students take, they could also do a virtual exchange.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah. So very cool.

Tim Gwillim: Other than that, you know, I’ve kind of planned on, obviously we’re being in workforce now, you know, really trying to, although there were champions in the, in workforce, in International Education before, you know, before I got there, so it’s not like

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm, <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: I’m the only one promoting this. Yeah. But that, we really want to expand, you know, International Education into the programs and Workforce (Education)

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>,

Tim Gwillim: from, you know, globalizing classes to maybe having some virtual exchanges that are specific to those programs

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: and maybe even study abroad opportunities for those programs, you know, that’s kind of what I have in my mind.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah.

Tim Gwillim:  Coming in the future, you know, that, that work still needs to be done.

Phil Tietjen: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Tim Gwillim: But, you know, that’s kind of what I would like to do.

Phil Tietjen:  That’s exciting. Yeah. That’s very cool. Great. Well, hey, I want to respect your time and we’re getting kind of close to the end here, so I thought I’d wrap up with anything else you’d like to share either about your doctoral work or your work in International Education with Suzanne, the students and faculty or something in workforce.

Tim Gwillim: not necessarily, but you know, I think just to me the big picture of what I found, you know, through my dissertation was that, hey, if short-term study abroad does promote retention and completion and student growth and intercultural competence, right. Because even in Workforce (Education), I mean, how many global companies do we have here in Davidson County that are employing our students?

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: that with these positive results, hey, we should work to make short term study abroad, more accessible to a greater number of students. Yeah. And how do we do that? You know, because there is a cost involved

Phil Tietjen: mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim: with study abroad.

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Tim Gwillim:  I think that’s maybe a question that we all need to work on and all try to work together and figure out, you know, so I think that’s the biggest thing that to me came about as a result of my dissertation is how do we make that happen?

Phil Tietjen: Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah.

Tim Gwillim:  How do we expand accessibility? How do we make it happen on a more frequently more broadly?

Phil Tietjen: Yeah. Yes. Yes. So. Great point. Well, thanks a lot, Tim. I really appreciate it. <Laugh>. Wrap up with a little bit of applause there. Thanks again for coming on. Thanks for sharing about your research and I look forward to hearing more down the road.

Tim Gwillim:  All right. Well great. Thank you for having me.

Phil Tietjen: Sure. Take care.